Re: [Nolug] Python : Confusion

On Sun, Dec 07, 2008 at 11:27:19AM -0600, Dennis J Harrison Jr wrote:
> Wow. You know your stuff Brett.

Not really :P ...

>
> Thank you for correcting me on the definition of scripting language.
> And I thought being able to roll your own executeables was enough.
> After trying to think of why I would be right... I give up the goat
> :) (I also thought that perl was no longer considered a scripting
> language only. Because of this.)
>
> There is a clear distinction.
>
> I also thought that procedural langs were any of them that could be
> used procedurally :)

I see. No, it's the style of programming. One could write procedural programs in Java, however OOP is heavily supported by it, so it doesn't make sense to use Java if that is how you wish to code. The same goes for C++. If you don't take advantage of its OOP-ness, then there is no reason to use it.

>
> Why the snub on OOP however?

I am not snubbing OOP, but rather the idea that there exists a style of programming (or paradigm) that will make all aspects of programming easy. In the words of Frank Brooks, it is no silver bullet.

>
> The main benefit for me is not having to use so much boiler plate to
> set up my classes. And I much prefer using object graphs to organize
> data (zope).
> But yes, this is a personal choice. And I don't think that OOP is
> 'superior'. But, rather, better for me in time spent and I love the
> syntax. However... I liked LISP.

I'd like to learn LISP one day - I've been really getting into the functional aspects of Perl the last couple of years, and I really like them.

>
> You shouldn't use OO just because you can. But there are plenty of
> cases where it saves time and effort, with no costs otherwise.
> Or is that not an agreeable point?

I agree.

>
>
> I also agree about python not being the end all be all. I am not a
> fan boy. We got on this whole train because we were talking about
> languages to learn. I maintain that time spent learning python gives
> you more programming juice per hour then any other language I can
> think of at that level (novice-intermediate).

Maybe, but I learned on Ada of all things, and to be honest, I think it is a better learning language than Python. Anything is better, however, than C++ or Java.

>
> What is your favorite? :)

Perl :) ... but I don't write production code - I mainly use it to prototype concepts. I like C for high performance applications, and have been playing around with D a little. I keep looking for some reasons to learn Erlang, which seems very interesting to me.

Brett

>
> On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:12 AM, B. Estrade <estrabd@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 11:11:36PM -0600, Dennis J Harrison Jr wrote:
> >> On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
> >> > On 12/06/08 16:18, Dennis J Harrison Jr wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I see a few people on the list who are confused as to what python is.
> >> >>
> >> >> Python is not a scripting language.
> >> >
> >> > Of course it is. The beauty is that it makes easy the task of writing
> >> > Really Large Scripts.
> >> --
> >> It does make writing very large scripts very easy. However, Python
> >> is most often compiled into bytecode. And if anything you would
> >> consider it more of a procedural lang then a scripting lang.
> >
> > I think you're a bit confused.
> >
> > Procedural refers to the way you program. It ranks up there with object oriented and functional programming.
> >
> > Scripting refers to the environment in which it is run, and scripting languages in particular require what is called an "interpreter." In otherwords, Python (like Perl), is a run-time "compiled" code. You can produce standalone executables from Python (and Perl, etc), but they are not the same sort of executables produced by gcc and C programs.
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> It can certainly be used as one
> >> >> if configured in that sense... Just like anything.
> >> >
> >> > Show me a COBOL script.
> >> --
> >> How could you not use any language as a scripting language?
> >
> > You need the ability run the source as a script, which requires an interpreter. IIRC, there are also distinctions that have to do with weak typing and the ability for various to be converted into different types on the fly. These days, the waters are very muddy.
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Python is one of the only Object Oriented languages available that you
> >> >
> >> > "One of the only" is an extraordinary weasel phrase.
> >> --
> >> Well I certainly can't say 'only'. Nor do I have intimate knowledge
> >> of every language.
> >
> > There are other languages that are held up as the epitome of pure OOP - and I don't think Python is high on that list. I would say that is is better at OOP than Perl, which requires some fakery to use its natural features to emulate OOP functionality. OOP is overrated anyway :)
> >
> > I am happy that so many people love Python, but like any language, it is not all it's cracked up to be.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Brett
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> can do useful things with in very little time.
> >> >
> >> > IIRC, it started as a procedural language. Even if it didn't, "procedural
> >> > orientation" has been there since the beginning.
> >> --
> >> OK. We agree on this.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> You can use regex and unicode as you will.
> >> >>
> >> >> OOTB you get support for : HTTP, FTP, SMTP, XML-RPC, POP, IMAP, CGI,
> >> >> and others I am sure I can't remember right now.
> >> >
> >> > What does this have to do with whether or not it's a scripting language?
> >> --
> >> Nothing.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> You get an interactive shell to dev and test with.
> >> >
> >> > And...
> >> >
> >> >> You can use Rpython and then have pypy generate c for you. (If it
> >> >> isn't fast enough, and stackless won't give you what you want)
> >> >
> >> > Only with a subset of Python syntax.
> >> --
> >> Right. Meaning, still using python. But having to give up some of
> >> the easy button for some extra speed.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Take a look at the python standard lib:
> >> >> http://docs.python.org/library/
> >> >
> >> > Been doing so since v1.5.1.
> >> --
> >> Congrats. This email wasn't a personal attack on your ego or
> >> anything. Just providing some information some of you might not know
> >> about.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> You can also pay attention to:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.python.org/doc/faq/general/#is-python-a-good-language-for-beginning-programmers
> >> >>
> >> >> And for examples of use:
> >> >> http://www.python.org/about/success/
> >> >>
> >> >> I know that perception is reality... meaning that I can not 'prove' to
> >> >> anyone that python is a better language for beginning programmers then
> >> >> any other language. I personally believe that and would be happy to
> >> >> help anyone get started.
> >> >
> >> > Python was *designed* as a teaching language, and it does a very good job at
> >> > it.
> >> Python was designed to be an effective ABC. Guido van Rossum thought
> >> that ABC and Pascal were very good teaching languages but were not so
> >> useful out and about. So while teaching is one of the goals. It is
> >> certainly not the only one.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Ron Johnson, Jr.
> >> > Jefferson LA USA
> >> >
> >> > How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
> >> > What different abilities do I have?
> >> > ___________________
> >> > Nolug mailing list
> >> > nolug@nolug.org
> >> >
> >> ___________________
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> >
> > --
> > B. Estrade
> > Louisiana Optical Network Initiative
> > +1.225.578.1920 aim: bz743
> > :wq
> > ___________________
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> > nolug@nolug.org
> >
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-- 
B. Estrade
Louisiana Optical Network Initiative
+1.225.578.1920 aim: bz743
:wq
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